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What do you believe is the most accurate version the development of human kind?
4000-10,000 years;Young-Earth; Literal interpretation of the Bible 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Allegorical or liberal interpretation of creation 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
'creative' interpretation of the Bible and/or Intelligent Design 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Big Bang->Evolutionary theory alone 62%  62%  [ 13 ]
Other 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 21
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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Jocificus wrote:
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If He cared, he'd stop bad things happening to good people. ;)


So he tests us, but then removes any bad consequences of said test if we happen to fail?

I don't see how that makes any sense at all.

If it's a test, and we have free will to do as we choose, he can't remove bad consequences and bad choices. That would remove our ability to choose, making it less of a test and more of a puppet show.


No, He tests us but knows the outcome of the test before He does it.

SO its less "I wonder what kind of a person this is" and more "Hah! I'm gonna tempt this dude and hes totally gonna go to hell."

The Christian god is a dick. ;)

I taught my kids to ride a bike, and at a certain point after taking the training wheels off, I let go of the bike and let them go on their own. I knew they were going to fall, and sure enough, they did. I helped them up and let them go again, and again they fell.

Riding a bike pretty much means you're gunna fall. I didn't try to influence them to not ride, I let them decide for themselves.

It's not easy ... knowing your kid is going to fall but still letting them fall, but it's the right thing to do.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:19 am 
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The real issue with taking Genesis literally is not the creation story itself, as God could have created the universe in any state.

The real issue is that it's basically impossible for the world to have progressed from having only two people on it to its current state in less than 10,000 years. This is especially true when you consider that at some intervening point, when humanity had already proliferated to the point that civilization existed, nearly all life was destroyed by the flood.

For this to work, God would have to interfere with the world's development to the point where it's nearly impossible to wrap your brain around it. The basic laws of physics would have had to be altered to the point where life as we know it is not possible, but since life continued, God would have somehow had to change them but not change them in truly mind-boggling ways. Where did all the extra people come from? How did they spread as far as they did so quickly? Why did no one remember the massively-accelerated population growth or spread and write this stuff down? Did God just force everyone to not notice or destroy all the evidence?

This results in a situation where God has, for some reason, created a situation where it's possible to deduce from the Scriptures that the world is less than 10,000 years old, (this isn't explicitly stated, you have to study it and figure it out for yourself) yet all evidence of the 10,000 year old Earth other than that contained in the Scriptures has been eliminated. Even if you assume God wants you to look to Scripture to find the answers, why is the process by which the earth was advanced from two people to the state it was at Jesus' birth not commented on at all? The creation of the universe deserves a detailed explanation, but that doesn't deserve even a single passage? It makes absolutely no sense.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:45 pm 
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Those things are all problems only if you accept the idea that God created the world 10,000 years ago but then turn arounds and try to pick apart the events since as if there were actually any reason God couldn't make all those things happen too.

All of it makes sense just fine if you start with a literal Genesis.

The real problem is that the beginning of Genesis is not intended as a detailed account. It's all just to set up Abraham coming on the scene. They're called Abrhamic religions for a reason.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:15 pm 
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A wizard did it!

I love the, "it makes sense if you don't try to make sense of it" responses.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Lenas wrote:
A wizard God did it!


Yes, exactly. Rephrasing it as "a wizard" and saying it in a presumably sarcastic tone do not make a counterargument.

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I love the, "it makes sense if you don't try to make sense of it using the assumptions of people who don't believe in the first place." responses.


FIFY

Again, if you start with the assumption that the first chapters of Genesis are literal descriptions of the creation of the world, it makes no sense to then proceed from there as if every other problem that would create couldn't also be solved by God. That isn't "trying to make sense of it"; it's a stolen concept fallacy where the idea of literal Creationism is accepted in getting the world, Adam, and Eve created but then rejected as soon as it conveniently creates other problems God has to solve. The flimsy justification of "Well, it isn't commented on and that doesn't make sense" doesn't help. That's entirely subjective. God comments on what He wishes to comment on. Trying to impose the perspective of a human on God (a human who doesn't believe in God in the first place, no less) is what doesn't make sense.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:55 pm 
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I don't believe because it doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense because I don't believe.

These are two very different statements.

FWIW, its the first one for me.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Those two sentences are, for all intents and purposes, identical. They are not different. You are making fundamental assumptions that cause it to "not make sense" to you. Those are different from the fundamental assumptions (otherwise known as "faith") to believers.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Its a circular argument.

It just depends on the starting point.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Its a circular argument.

It just depends on the starting point.


It is a circular argument to claim you don't believe because it doesn't make sense without acknowledging that is because you make assumptions in terms of which it doesn't make sense.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:11 pm 
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It doesn't make rational sense in terms of reality. Therefore, I don't believe in it.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Yes but he's asking you to take the viewpoint of a literal Genesis believer. In that case, your faith would reconcile your need for understanding everything, and you'd be able to just say, "God did it." He's not asking YOU to make sense of it. He's saying that if you believed in Genesis literally, it wouldn't be hard to do.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:30 pm 
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Müs wrote:
It doesn't make rational sense in terms of reality. Therefore, I don't believe in it.


It doesn't make rational sense in terms of reality if you assume that the observable universe is the extent of reality, but we're positing a God who could with no meaningful effort address all those problems. It makes sense in terms of its own assumptions, one of which is that God can create a universe in any way He wants, which would include one with all the evidence necessary to appear to have originated by completely different means.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:17 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Müs wrote:
It doesn't make rational sense in terms of reality. Therefore, I don't believe in it.


It doesn't make rational sense in terms of reality if you assume that the observable universe is the extent of reality, but we're positing a God who could with no meaningful effort address all those problems. It makes sense in terms of its own assumptions, one of which is that God can create a universe in any way He wants, which would include one with all the evidence necessary to appear to have originated by completely different means.


This is my "god is an *******" option, from earlier in the thread.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:38 pm 
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In which case God is an "*******" only in your personal, subjective judgement.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:14 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
In which case God is an "*******" only in your personal, subjective judgement.



Yes. It is my personal, subjective judgement that any Deity that would intentionally design the universe to appear to be 14 billion years old, make it appear that life on earth is the result of the evolution of all species from an original single-celled species over the last four billion years, hide any and all empirical evidence of His existence from any and all observers, and then require people to somehow realize it's all a divine practical joke and come to the entirely illogical and unsupported conclusion that the universe and all species in it was created discretely 6,0000 years ago by a Deity -- or else they burn for eternity -- that would make Him an *******. YMMV.

There are plenty of ways to believe in God that do not require ignoring any and all reason. Some only require ignoring tiny bits of reason, and everybody does that at least a little.

I do find it interesting, in this poll, btw, that none of the literal young earth creationists here selected that option.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:00 am 
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Just so we're clear that it's your personal, subjective opinion. I don't buy the "it looks 14 billion years old but its really brand new" idea, but believing that has nothing to do with abandonment of all reason. Again, its a matter of starting assumptions.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Arafys wrote:
I don't believe because it doesn't make sense.

It doesn't make sense because I don't believe.

These are two very different statements.

FWIW, its the first one for me.


Diamondeye wrote:
Those two sentences are, for all intents and purposes, identical. They are not different.
You could not possibly be anymore wrong.

The word "because" is a logical operator in both sentences, but the subordination is COMPLETELY different.

If ever anyone on these forums has been ABSOLUTELY wrong, this is it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:08 pm 
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You know why math is hard?

Most people can't understand the difference between if and iff.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:28 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
iff.


Ugh, I've been out of the game too long. It actually took me a bit to remember what that stood for.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:04 pm 
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I believe...I'll have another drink and celebrate the Giant's win over the Cards tonight! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:52 am 
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Jasmy wrote:
I believe...I'll have another drink and celebrate the Giant's win over the Cards tonight! :D

Are you saying their win was an act of God?

/tease

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:02 am 
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Müs wrote:
Jasmy wrote:
I believe...I'll have another drink and celebrate the Giant's win over the Cards tonight! :D

Are you saying their win was an act of God?

/tease

If God is kind and merciful then their victory over the Tigers is an act.

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