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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:00 am 
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The underlying issue is that the FBI was allowed to turn a counter-intelligence investigation against Russia into a criminal investigation against the Trump campaign, and use political opposition research in the process of doing so. What's worse, it was a criminal investigation of a crime that does not exist, and an "obstruction" claim that exists only because of an improper investigation.

This has all been laid out in the National Review by Andrew McCarthy, a former high-profile Federal prosecutor. (and yes, NR is conservative, but it not an institutional Trump fan base, and it is, in fact, a credible source of facts. Generally more so than the mainstream media, who are responsible for the atmosphere of "everything Republicans do is a bombshell scandal, everything Democrats do is a minor foible on which REPUBLICANS POUNCE!!") It's important to note that 2+ years ago, prior to and when Mueller got appointed, McCarthy was loudly insisting Trump was in real trouble, that there was no way the FBI would ever rely on opposition research, they must have something... and then he changed his tune, and admitted "I was wrong" in an article with IIRC that title.

People do not realize how dangerous this is once Trump is out of office. The Democrats are essentially trying to criminalize Republicans winning elections - it's going on in Georgia as well, with this Stacy Abrams idiot claiming she really won (she didn't) due to "gerrymandering" (it's completely impossible to gerrymander a statewide popular vote election).

"Collusion" is not a crime. Even used as a synonym for "conspiracy", it is not a crime because you have to conspire to break another law, and no such law to be broken has ever been articulated (and even if one can be found now, it's far too late - you can't do the investigation first, THEN say "well, it was this law all along"). There cannot be any obstruction because you cannot obstruct justice for an investigation of a crime that doesn't exist - not as in, the crime has not been committed, but rather no law that has allegedly been broken can be identified. You cannot simply pull a word out of the air that sounds criminal-ish, investigate, then claim people obstructed the investigation.

Robert Mueller was a fool to ever accept this work, no matter how well he performed it (and he really could have done far worse; the fact that he finished in 2 years is admirable). No matter how professional his investigation, he should have said publicly he would not accept an investigation into a crime that did not exist. He worsened it with his assertion that the report "does not exonerate the President".

Yes it does. Period. By definition, it does. It is "innocent until proven guilty". If you are not going to indict, and are not going to say outright "only policy against indicting Presidents is stopping me" (which he did not, attempts to spin his words that way notwithstanding) he did not reach a conclusion at all. In other words, he thinks maybe it's indictable for obstruction, but that fails to overcome the lack of a legitimate investigation to obstruct, and even fi that were not a problem, does not make progress towards "proven guilty". If you do not charge someone with a crime, they are innocent. Period. Exonerated. Exculpated. Every single time. This is not, as he claimed, a "special circumstance". There are no special circumstances; neither the Constitution nor any lesser document created one for him - it is special pleading from him, out of thin air, with "because reasons" as the justification.

He did this with a team composed entirely of Democrats, some of whom were caught red-handed talking about the investigation as an "insurance policy" etc., along with other improprieties, all by Democrats, and nary a Republican other than Mueller himself in sight. He claimed that "never had occasion to ask someone's political affiliation [in all his investigative years]. It is not done." No? It's a "special circumstance", isn't it, Bob? You could have done that a lot more easily than try to change "innocent until proven guilty" on your own say-so.

Thankfully, the hearing was a disaster for the Democrats. They got nothing other than a few possibly-spinnable lines (some fo which he walked back before the end of the hearing).

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:01 am 
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Rynar wrote:
I’m up to my tits in meetings for the next 6 hours.


Maybe take it easier on the fried foods, and hit the gym a little more often? ;) :D

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:46 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
The underlying issue is that the FBI was allowed to turn a counter-intelligence investigation against Russia into a criminal investigation against the Trump campaign, and use political opposition research in the process of doing so. What's worse, it was a criminal investigation of a crime that does not exist, and an "obstruction" claim that exists only because of an improper investigation.

Thank you, this is the clearest and most reasonable assertion of the what has transpired.

Claims of treason, coups and calls for executions are insanity.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:29 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
The underlying issue is that the FBI was allowed to turn a counter-intelligence investigation against Russia into a criminal investigation against the Trump campaign, and use political opposition research in the process of doing so. What's worse, it was a criminal investigation of a crime that does not exist, and an "obstruction" claim that exists only because of an improper investigation.

Thank you, this is the clearest and most reasonable assertion of the what has transpired.

Claims of treason, coups and calls for executions are insanity.


Assume this to be a hypothetical:

If the Administration in power initiates an investigation under false pretenses, with 100% certainty that the allegations they are making are false because they themselves manufactured the evidence they present to make the allegations, for the purpose of forcing a duly elected President out of office, either through impeachment and removal, or by resignation; that is a coup, correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:30 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Rynar wrote:
I’m up to my tits in meetings for the next 6 hours.


Maybe take it easier on the fried foods, and hit the gym a little more often? ;) :D


:lol:

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:59 am 
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Lock Him Up.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:55 pm 
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Rynar wrote:

Assume this to be a hypothetical:

If the Administration in power initiates an investigation under false pretenses, with 100% certainty that the allegations they are making are false because they themselves manufactured the evidence they present to make the allegations, for the purpose of forcing a duly elected President out of office, either through impeachment and removal, or by resignation; that is a coup, correct?


There was nothing false or manufactured. Papadopolos was told that Russia had information that could be used against Clinton and Papadopolos agreed to meet with them to discuss the terms to garner said information. The Russians did not actually have any Clinton emails and so nothing came of it other than Papadopolos serving 12 days in jail for lying about it.

Has Trump been impeached? Did Mueller even approach that level with his investigation? For that matter do you even know what Mueller was appointed to investigate? None of what you are saying happened. While there were certainly idiots on both sides of the aisle and talking heads on MSNBC/CNN screaming for impeachment the smarter folks who understand what actually transpired prevented any such motion from being advanced because people in the know acknowledged it was bogus and primarily the gnashing of sour grapes.

The system worked as it should.

I am still horrified that any American would be willing to entertain offers of foreign assistance in an election but I don't believe Trump was ever personally aware of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 4:27 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Rynar wrote:

Assume this to be a hypothetical:

If the Administration in power initiates an investigation under false pretenses, with 100% certainty that the allegations they are making are false because they themselves manufactured the evidence they present to make the allegations, for the purpose of forcing a duly elected President out of office, either through impeachment and removal, or by resignation; that is a coup, correct?


There was nothing false or manufactured. Papadopolos was told that Russia had information that could be used against Clinton and Papadopolos agreed to meet with them to discuss the terms to garner said information. The Russians did not actually have any Clinton emails and so nothing came of it other than Papadopolos serving 12 days in jail for lying about it.

Has Trump been impeached? Did Mueller even approach that level with his investigation? For that matter do you even know what Mueller was appointed to investigate? None of what you are saying happened. While there were certainly idiots on both sides of the aisle and talking heads on MSNBC/CNN screaming for impeachment the smarter folks who understand what actually transpired prevented any such motion from being advanced because people in the know acknowledged it was bogus and primarily the gnashing of sour grapes.

The system worked as it should.

I am still horrified that any American would be willing to entertain offers of foreign assistance in an election but I don't believe Trump was ever personally aware of it.


Everything was false and manufactured. The entire purpose of the Obama Administration and Clinton Campaign attempting to dirty up Papadopolous was to construct the Russian narrative in order that they could supply public optics to make their “Russian collusion” probe/investigation stick. It was to manufacture probably cause.

It was always a coup attempt. Simply because it was not successful does not mitigate the fact that it was attempted.

It’s treason.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:13 pm 
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Treason isn't necessarily a bad thing but if you can use the actions of the state against those who wish to control the actions of the state then hoist them by their own petard.

hoist hoist hoist.

I think this very thread just demonstrates how much individuals can reject reality that conflicts with their view of the team they've aligned themselves with.


In Elm news the first raised bed is done and I won the CMP lottery to get a reimported M1911A1. Very nice I must say - 2 day shipping.

Also I really like Pimms Cups.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:54 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
I am still horrified that any American would be willing to entertain offers of foreign assistance in an election but I don't believe Trump was ever personally aware of it.


Americans have been getting foreign assistance in elections for ages. Hell, the "Dossier" was foreign assistance - used to raise hell about Trump supposedly being in bed with Putin. I think your feelings and assessment are correct, but what's really even more appalling is that it's something the press has kept quiet for ages, but as soon as it's Trump, they freak out.

It only became an issue because it was Trump.

Sort of like Russia only became a threat the Democrats cared about because Trump. "The 1980's want their foreign policy back lol" right up until election night 2016. Never mind that Trump just pulled us out (thank God) of the INF treaty and is arming the Ukrainians, he must be in bed with Putin!

It never ceases to amaze me that despite the fact that I didn't even vote for Trump, and prior to the election I was furious at the Republicans for allowing him to be nominated, I find myself constantly having to defend him because the criticisms of him are so over-the-top hypoicritical that its unavoidable. It's not normal political hypocrisy, but every move he makes results in screaming panic even if it's been unremarkable practice in the past, while gross insubordination and misconduct by executive agencies is apparently A-OK if Trump is President.

What this all really speaks to is how irresponsible, self-interested, and utterly untrustworthy journalism as a profession is. It's deeply ironic that while Freedom of the Press is essential to a free society, the actual free press itself is a terrible threat to freedom, blatantly carrying water for one side politically, even when that side's candidates openly embrace authoritarian re-working of the entire economy in ways that range from the disastrous (medicare for all) to the physically impossible (re-fit every building in America with solar in 10 years). Major media and tech companies are a gigantic corporate threat to freedom, far bigger than any defense contractor or oil company could ever hope to be, but no one sees it because they are coming from the left, which they have spent decades poo-poohing any and all concerns about.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:37 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:

Americans have been getting foreign assistance in elections for ages. Hell, the "Dossier" was foreign assistance - used to raise hell about Trump supposedly being in bed with Putin. I think your feelings and assessment are correct, but what's really even more appalling is that it's something the press has kept quiet for ages, but as soon as it's Trump, they freak out.

It only became an issue because it was Trump.

Sort of like Russia only became a threat the Democrats cared about because Trump. "The 1980's want their foreign policy back lol" right up until election night 2016. Never mind that Trump just pulled us out (thank God) of the INF treaty and is arming the Ukrainians, he must be in bed with Putin!

It never ceases to amaze me that despite the fact that I didn't even vote for Trump, and prior to the election I was furious at the Republicans for allowing him to be nominated, I find myself constantly having to defend him because the criticisms of him are so over-the-top hypoicritical that its unavoidable. It's not normal political hypocrisy, but every move he makes results in screaming panic even if it's been unremarkable practice in the past, while gross insubordination and misconduct by executive agencies is apparently A-OK if Trump is President.

What this all really speaks to is how irresponsible, self-interested, and utterly untrustworthy journalism as a profession is. It's deeply ironic that while Freedom of the Press is essential to a free society, the actual free press itself is a terrible threat to freedom, blatantly carrying water for one side politically, even when that side's candidates openly embrace authoritarian re-working of the entire economy in ways that range from the disastrous (medicare for all) to the physically impossible (re-fit every building in America with solar in 10 years). Major media and tech companies are a gigantic corporate threat to freedom, far bigger than any defense contractor or oil company could ever hope to be, but no one sees it because they are coming from the left, which they have spent decades poo-poohing any and all concerns about.

I left out a key element, sorry:

Hopwin wrote:
I am still horrified that any American would be willing to entertain offers of foreign assistance in exchange for future political favor in an election but I don't believe Trump was ever personally aware of it.


The Russsians showed up prepared to ask for the lifting of sanctions and turning a blind eye in the Ukraine. They just didn't have anything to offer on their side for these favors.

In general foreign assistance should be fine. For example if MI-6 were to step forward with evidence that Joe Biden is actually literally a Manchurian Candidate, we should all welcome that foreign assistance.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:55 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
I am still horrified that any American would be willing to entertain offers of foreign assistance in exchange for future political favor in an election

Obama basically did this with Medvedev and was barely a blip on the media's radar. It only seems to matter now because it's a Republican, and even more so because it's a particularly crass Republican.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:37 am 
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Oh, you’re going to be spinning hard once it’s revealed that Papadopolous turned down Mifsud’s offer.

It’s also very strange to see you coming out against opposition research.

Man, when it’s revealed that Italy, Australia, England, France, Canada, etc. conspired to throw the election towards Hillary, what will you say then?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:21 am 
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Now Halper firing a shot across the bow.

Halper team files in pending Russia/England lawsuit: if someone is acting at the direction of the FBI they have qualified immunity.

Also, Ohr testimony confirms that the purpose of Steele involvement was to prevent a Trump Presidency.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Rynar wrote:
Oh, you’re going to be spinning hard once it’s revealed that Papadopolous turned down Mifsud’s offer.

Let me know when this happens.
Rynar wrote:
It’s also very strange to see you coming out against opposition research.

Go read again, slowly.
Rynar wrote:
Man, when it’s revealed that Italy, Australia, England, France, Canada, etc. conspired to throw the election towards Hillary, what will you say then?

I will politely remind you to take your medications.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:40 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
Rynar wrote:
Oh, you’re going to be spinning hard once it’s revealed that Papadopolous turned down Mifsud’s offer.

Let me know when this happens.
Rynar wrote:
It’s also very strange to see you coming out against opposition research.

Go read again, slowly.
Rynar wrote:
Man, when it’s revealed that Italy, Australia, England, France, Canada, etc. conspired to throw the election towards Hillary, what will you say then?

I will politely remind you to take your medications.


It’s already been coming out through primary source documents which the MSM isn’t reporting on.

Italy has already flipped.

And again, once that information reaches you, what will you say?

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:10 pm 
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Where are you seeing that Italy flipped?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:18 pm 
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Screeling wrote:
Where are you seeing that Italy flipped?


Papadopolous.

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:18 pm 
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https://twitter.com/chapulincolored/sta ... 85601?s=21

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

Ezekiel 23:19-20 


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:19 pm 
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https://www.politico.com/story/2019/08/ ... ig-1471698

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19 Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:57 am 
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Nothing you have linked to supports any of the assertions you are making.

Who is feeding you this stuff?

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:28 pm 
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As soon as the Russia thing collapsed, it became "But Ukraine!" Never mind that Ukraine and Russia are enemies.

And of course, if a Republican and his son had skirted the edge of propriety the way Biden and his son have,t he media would be screaming for resignation, investigation, and all the rest, but it's Uncle Joe so it's totes ok.

And of course, Jill Stein, Tulsi Gabbard, and whoever else are apparently now Russian agents.

Evidently Russia can now pick whoever they want for our political offices, just by letting it drop to CNN and the DNC that they really like that person's opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:10 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
As soon as the Russia thing collapsed, it became "But Ukraine!" Never mind that Ukraine and Russia are enemies.

And of course, if a Republican and his son had skirted the edge of propriety the way Biden and his son have,t he media would be screaming for resignation, investigation, and all the rest, but it's Uncle Joe so it's totes ok.

And of course, Jill Stein, Tulsi Gabbard, and whoever else are apparently now Russian agents.

Evidently Russia can now pick whoever they want for our political offices, just by letting it drop to CNN and the DNC that they really like that person's opponent.


But when Mitt Romney said Russia was a problem the Democrats laughed him out of the debate. Worms turn I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:17 pm 
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Hopwin wrote:
But when Mitt Romney said Russia was a problem the Democrats laughed him out of the debate. Worms turn I guess.

Turns out "Russia is a problem" does not mean "anyone Hillary Clinton is mad at is a Russian puppet."

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 Post subject: Re: Trump and Russia
PostPosted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:51 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Hopwin wrote:
But when Mitt Romney said Russia was a problem the Democrats laughed him out of the debate. Worms turn I guess.

Turns out "Russia is a problem" does not mean "anyone Hillary Clinton is mad at is a Russian puppet."

I am not sure what you are trying to say. Wasn't Hillary the SoS when Obama mocked Mitt for calling Russia a threat? It just strikes me as hilarious how the left spun on a dime from laughing off viewing the Russian threat as a "cold-war era mentality" to suddenly the single biggest threat to our democracy in under four years.

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