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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:37 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Müs wrote:
I was wondering last night.

Invictus class SD(P) or ISD? Who do you think would win?


The ISD would win easily. Honorverse missiles have warheads in the 15-to-100-or-so-megaton range; energy weapons might be 10x that. ISD turbolasers are in the gigaton range, minimum, and their shields can withstand fire in that range for hours. The Invictus would run out of amnmunition trying to penetrate ISD shields. However, it might escape destruction surprisingly easily if it doesn't close to energy range. TIE fighter weapons are much less powerful than capital ship weapons, so if it keeps its wedge interposed the ISD might not be able to effectively attack it. Wedges are invulnerable in the context of the HH universe, not necessarily immune to weapons orders of magnitude more powerful, but even if not perfectly immune to ISD weapons, they're still an incredibly strong defense, so strong that no one in HH even bothers trying to devise a way to penetrate them. Even the "grave lance", which can defeat sidewalls, isn't really contemplated to have a serious chance of penetrating a wedge.

HH weapons might seem to have much longer ranges, but in reality the extreme power of electronic warfare in SW is probably what limits ranges. (witness the jamming in ROTJ; Ozzel "coming out of lightspeed too close to the system"; Vader obviously expected him to bombard the base from outside the system).


That makes sense. I hadn't thought about the "gigaton" scale SW idiocy ;). (Their abuse of the Kardashev scale is intolerable to me really.). But, it *is* generally why an ISD would whup the **** out of the Enterprise. ;)

That said though, even if the Missiles in the HH universe are in the megaton range, would not the lasing effects focus that **** and work to burn out the ISD's shields? They don't seem to have very much CM tech, and I imagine a full pattern of (howevermany an Invictus can handle (moreso with Apollo)) would wreak some pretty good havoc.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:48 am 
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Müs wrote:
[That makes sense. I hadn't thought about the "gigaton" scale SW idiocy ;). (Their abuse of the Kardashev scale is intolerable to me really.). But, it *is* generally why an ISD would whup the **** out of the Enterprise. ;)


It's really not stupid at all, when you think about what Star Wars is about. It's a society that has had galaxy-spanning technology for 25,000 years; they fly from one side to the other in hours or days. HH is about a society that has gotten comfortable in its intersteller neighborhood and is pushing out; Star Trek is really about very early steps in interstellar exploration (and it would be a better series if it stayed more away from large military conflicts and kept the violence more on the "Wrath of Khan" type stuff. ST likes to try to do military sci fi from an anti-military standpoint, and as a result their military capabilities aren't even realistic within their own level of techmology.)

There are other series out there, like The Culture that could take SW to the cleaners too, and ones like the WH40 heavy hitters that could really give the Empire a run for its money.

Moist of the anger over these debates comes from a misconception that "entity a from franchise b can beat entity x from franchise y in a war" is a rip on franchise y. It's not. The Minutemen from Fallout 4 could annihilate any faction in Skyrim with laser weapons and long-range artillery fire that even dragons would be hard-pressed to counter; that is not a rip on Skyrim, and the fact that an ISD is more powerful than an Hverse SD is not a rip on HH; it's an acknowledgement that the series are about different things. SW is about a society so advanced that their technology essentially is magic. HH isn't (at least, not to the same degree)

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That said though, even if the Missiles in the HH universe are in the megaton range, would not the lasing effects focus that **** and work to burn out the ISD's shields? They don't seem to have very much CM tech, and I imagine a full pattern of (howevermany an Invictus can handle (moreso with Apollo)) would wreak some pretty good havoc.


No. Like I said, ISD shields resist lengthy poundings from weapons orders of magnitude more powerful. Based purely on energy yield there would be no chance at all. There's really nothing else to go on, because while we know what SW shields do, we do not know how they work. All we have to go on is the observed things they can accomplish. The same applies to turbolasers; they are demonstrably not lasers in the way we think of them and are probably called "lasers" out of tradition and habit (much like we say we "Taped a show" sometimes when it's on a DVR). We know what kind of damage they can do, but we do not know how they work.

Now, we have observed that in ESB and in Rogue 1, ion-based weaponry seems to have some ability to penetrate shields. We also know that there are both "ray shields" and "particle shields" in SW. Therefore, if the HH ship somehow were able to gain access to "ion weaponry", they might experience greater success. However, both the ion torpedos and the ion cannon are weapons developed with SW energy sources and technology, which HH does not have. It is speculative whether or not they could develop such, and could do so in a timely enough fashion to be useful (probably not aboard an SD while already under fire). However it is a safe assumption that if they could it would be crude compared to the SW weapons.

It should be noted as well, that like "turbolaser", "ion" may or may not refer to anything we'd call an ion stream. That still doesn't preclude HH from necessarily being able to understand or develop something like it though.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Those are fair assessments. I have trouble disagreeing with that.

I'd think the ISD/HH "fight" would end more in a draw really. The Invictus would roll wedge against the ISD and run the hell away if they weren't doing any damage at all. Barring a lucky contact nuke hit to the shield generator towers, I have to agree that you're probably right in the damage mitigation of the ISD.

If the ISD launched TIEs, I doubt their weapons could penetrate the sidewalls, and the CMs/Laser clusters would make quick work of them.

So, probably a standoff.

I wonder though... could the Death Star's Superlaser penetrate a warship's double impeller wedge? ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Those are fair assessments. I have trouble disagreeing with that.

I'd think the ISD/HH "fight" would end more in a draw really. The Invictus would roll wedge against the ISD and run the hell away if they weren't doing any damage at all. Barring a lucky contact nuke hit to the shield generator towers, I have to agree that you're probably right in the damage mitigation of the ISD.

If the ISD launched TIEs, I doubt their weapons could penetrate the sidewalls, and the CMs/Laser clusters would make quick work of them.

So, probably a standoff.

I wonder though... could the Death Star's Superlaser penetrate a warship's double impeller wedge? ;)


I suspect it could. We know the wedge has an upper limit; HH militaries obviously double-wedge and sandwich in a sidewall for a reason, but we've never that I recall seen even aa civilian wedge seriously stressed from weapon hits, so the wedge's upper limit of tolerance is definitely very high. However, the DS demonstrates energy output comparable to what our Sun puts out in about 7,000 years so I think it's fairly safe to assume that's over the wedge's limit.

1-on-1 capital ship battles aren't particularly good scenarios though. The Empire has over 25,000 ISDs alone, and an entire galaxy of industrial capability; the entire Honorverse can only must probably around 10% that many SDs, and most aren't going to be SD(P) types. That's not even considering large SD types, or innumerable smaller ships.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Its almost boggling as to how the Empire lost. Or, once "defeated" the Rebellion managed to maintain control after Thrawn took over.

Comparing relative sizes, yeah, I can see that being a big mountain to climb. The Sollies come *close* to parity (not *very* close, but closer than the Grand Alliance). But their SDs are utter ****. Like steamships vs. Nuclear Supercarriers.

I wonder if the HH ships would be better served squaring off against the Battlestars... But there, their FTL systems are much more flexible.

Its almost as if Weber wanted a particular type of combat, and he designed his tech base to cater to that combat ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Müs wrote:
Its almost boggling as to how the Empire lost. Or, once "defeated" the Rebellion managed to maintain control after Thrawn took over.


Well, how many stars are in a galaxy? 100-400 billion in the Milky Way. The Imperial fleet had 25,000 ISDs. The Imperial fleet may seem large, but compared to how much space it really had to police, it's not that large. The Rebels won by staying hidden and then taking their one shot.

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Comparing relative sizes, yeah, I can see that being a big mountain to climb. The Sollies come *close* to parity (not *very* close, but closer than the Grand Alliance). But their SDs are utter ****. Like steamships vs. Nuclear Supercarriers.


The Solarian fleet is much larger than the Imperial fleet relative to the size of its own territory.

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I wonder if the HH ships would be better served squaring off against the Battlestars... But there, their FTL systems are much more flexible.


Probably. A Battlestar is quite large, but also far less powerful than an ISD. Yields are explicitly stated between 50 KT and 50 MT that I recall.

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Its almost as if Weber wanted a particular type of combat, and he designed his tech base to cater to that combat ;)


What he wanted was Horatio Hornblower in space, and then to take it up to WWII. There's an interview where he talks about it.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:38 pm 
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I'd be interested to see that interview :)

Also, the Rebels had better Space Wizards on their side ;)

Just getting to the point in Storm from the Shadows where they're starting to deploy Apollo against the Sollies. Right after the Battle of Manticore for the most part.

Some breakthroughs are just WAY overbalancing. Apollo is one of them. It makes sense in universe, and is absolutely a natural progression of the tech, so it doesn't feel "Deus Exey" but it *does* make Manticore difficult to challenge.

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