The Glade 4.0

"Turn the lights down, the party just got wilder."
It is currently Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:41 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 114 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:30 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:59 pm
Posts: 9392
Diamondeye wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Because 50's car culture was totally safe, y'all, and not at all the domain of reckless hooligans and invincible teenagers.


Yes, clearly when people saw space fighters maneuvering in close quarters and shooting laser cannons at each other in the fashion of WWII fighter planes , they were supposed to think 1950s car culture, not WWII air combat. I can definitely tell you which of tjose has more broad cultural awarenes - and which was the real model for starfighter combat - and it didn't involve cars.

If you look at the trench run it resembles a WWII torpedo bomber attack, like at Midway or that sank Prince of Wales and Repulse. Needle, ball, and airspeed.

But please, tell us more about how Rey is totally a Mary Sue and Luke isnt because 1950s car racing.

Look, DE. I never said that the Battle of Yavin wasn't clearly a dogfight that involved deadly weaponry, yadda yadda.

I said that the notion that Luke had an old buddy vouching for his piloting experience based on his years of hotrodding back home is meant to echo tropes that you see in stories about car culture, which Lucas was very much a fan of. Reference American Graffiti, the movie that got Lucas noticed and a seat at the table to make Star Wars in the first place. You can see more modern examples of it in The Fast and the Furious movies.

So, to repeat two points: that the Battle of Yavin is a clear translation of WWII air combat is not mutually exclusive to suggesting that Luke's recruitment can be taken as an homage to car culture tropes, and I honestly don't care if I convince you because I'm not super invested in this argument the way you seem to be.

_________________
"Aaaah! Emotions are weird!" - Amdee
"... Mirrorshades prevent the forces of normalcy from realizing that one is crazed and possibly dangerous. They are the symbol of the sun-staring visionary, the biker, the rocker, the policeman, and similar outlaws." - Bruce Sterling, preface to Mirrorshades


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:02 am 
Offline
Manchurian Mod
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:40 am
Posts: 5846
It is fairly well established in Star Wars that hot rodding around Tatooine does translate directly to flying a star fighter. Cars in Star Wars are not like cars in real life. They have engines on them that very much resemble the engines on star fighters. They appear to fly around at mach speeds. It is for this reason that Rey's sudden competence with the Millennium Falcon doesn't really seem problematic, nor does her immediate rapport with Han Solo. In this scenario, we do see that the old dog does still have some tricks up his sleeve that Rey has never heard of.

We do not really see Luke dog fight at the end of a New Hope that I recall. We see him speeding down a trench trying not to hit things that are jutting out of the walls. This could very well be exactly like Beggar's Canyon back home. We don't see Luke actually dogfighting until Hoth, at which point he has several months of experience fighting in an actual war. That does actually make someone a competent pilot, even in real life. We do see him hit a lucky one-in-a-million shot without a targeting computer. Yes, that is his faculties with the Force at work. He also has Obi-Wan's ghost coaching him. What we do not see him do is pick up his as-of-yet-unused-by-his-hands lightsaber and whoop Darth Vader's ***. That is precisely what we see Rey do in Force Awakens. Kylo Ren is presented as the new Darth Vader. Rey has never picked up a lightsaber before, and it is suggested that she was a pre-adolescent girl when Luke disappeared, yet she defeats Kylo Ren in multiple contests.

Contrast this to the first time Luke actually confronts Darth Vader. This happens after Luke has months of real war experience. He is no longer fresh off the farm, but rather a seasoned warrior. He then trains for an unknown length of time with the greatest Jedi Master of the previous era. When he faces Darth Vader, he is soundly thrashed. This is not even a real fight for Darth Vader. He is toying with Luke front to back. Vader is immeasurably superior to Luke at this point in time. We will have to wait for another movie before we truly see the fruits of Luke's labor, but we do see him run roughshod over Jabba's gang. Luke's defeat at the hands of Vader was not a result of Luke's ineptitude, but rather Darth Vader really is that powerful. Clearly he learned something from Yoda. We see why Leia and the other rebel leaders were so keen to have Obi-Wan's assistance, and why the Emperor and Vader wanted to get Luke away from the rebels. If this is what the Jedi are capable of, perhaps the rebels have a chance.

Rey has just displayed a greater proficiency with both the Force and her lightsaber than Kylo Ren. We are left to wonder at the end of Force Awakens: Why does the Republic need to find Luke Skywalker? What would be the point, short of our desire to see Luke Skywalker once more? The whole plot of the movie is about finding where Luke Skywalker has gone, but that quest gets rendered meaningless.

_________________
Buckle your pants or they might fall down.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:48 pm
Posts: 751
Location: In some distant part of the Universe
Why is it that people have such a problem with Rey's "awakening" of her force powers, and her winning a lightsaber duel with a clearly wounded, and emotionally unstable Kylo Ren?

She's strong in the force. That much is clear. But for the better part of their duel, she is clearly struggling. All of her strikes were wild and reckless, and she was constantly retreating, or losing ground. It very much reminded me of Luke's first saber fight with Vader in ESB. Kylo seemed like he could've finished her off at any moment, yet he didn't. Whether he was toying with her (as Vader did with Luke) or just trying to keep her alive (Remember Snoke wanted her alive), is unclear.

It wasn't until he had her clearly beaten, then offered to train her in the ways of the force, that her powers truly emerged and she was able to handily defeat him. This was even more apparent after my 2nd viewing. Watch it again, and look at the difference in Rey's fighting style and confidence between the rest of the fight, and this particular turning point. It was like night and day.

Also, people seem to have a problem with her piloting skills, and what not. Have they forgotten the antics of a 9 year old boy, named Anakin Skywalker, who single-handedly blew up a Trade Federation control ship?

_________________
"I Live, I Love, I Slay, and I Am Content."
- Conan the Barbarian


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:35 am 
Offline
I got nothin.
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:15 pm
Posts: 11160
Location: Arafys, AKA El Müso Guapo!
Caleria wrote:
Also, people seem to have a problem with her piloting skills, and what not. Have they forgotten the antics of a 9 year old boy, named Anakin Skywalker, who single-handedly blew up a Trade Federation control ship?


Yes. Because R2 did that. Lil' Annie was just along for the ride. R2 had wisely disconnected all the piloting controls and was running the fighter.

_________________
Image
Holy shitsnacks!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:50 am 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15603
Location: Combat Information Center
Corolinth wrote:
It is fairly well established in Star Wars that hot rodding around Tatooine does translate directly to flying a star fighter. Cars in Star Wars are not like cars in real life. They have engines on them that very much resemble the engines on star fighters. They appear to fly around at mach speeds. It is for this reason that Rey's sudden competence with the Millennium Falcon doesn't really seem problematic, nor does her immediate rapport with Han Solo. In this scenario, we do see that the old dog does still have some tricks up his sleeve that Rey has never heard of.


This is a fair enough point of view - but it speaks again to the inconsistency about complaining of Mary Sue-ishness for Rey but not Luke. I tend to chalk this up more to the inclination to find fault with the new movie because it's new than anything to do with Rey being female.

We do not really see Luke dog fight at the end of a New Hope that I recall. We see him speeding down a trench trying not to hit things that are jutting out of the walls. This could very well be exactly like Beggar's Canyon back home. We don't see Luke actually dogfighting until Hoth, at which point he has several months of experience fighting in an actual war. [/quote]

Closer to 3 years at that point but yes. However, Luke did destroy at least 1 TIE prior to his Trench attack and made a strafing run against the Death Star. Recall that the initial plan was for the Y-wings to make the run while the X-wings covered; The X-wings only began their attacks after the Y-wings failed due to their lower speed. Remember the Y-wings were shot down well short of the exhaust port while Red Leader actually got within torpedo range and fired; he just missed. After he was hit, Luke told him to make a turn so his element could cover the damaged X-Wing's escape but Red Leader told him to start his attack run instead. During the period where the Y-wings and the first X-wings are attacking it is safe to assume the other fighters were engaging in combat not just orbiting casually.

Bottom line is that Luke most certainly DID engage in dogfighting in ANH.

_________________
"Kind-hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat an enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of war. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed" - On War


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:59 am 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9441
Location: Your Dreams
There's absolutely nothing Mary-Sue-ish about Rey if you simply accept the obvious conclusion that she's already been at least partly trained, or has some other reason for her rapid aptitude in the force.

She manages to "fly" the millenium falcon by bouncing it off of sand dunes until she loses the tie fighters. She picks up a lightsaber and barely manages to defeat an obviously green and inexperienced, as well as very heavily injured and mentally imbalanced Kylo Ren. The only impressive bit of work was her Jedi Mind Trick, which still took multiple tries, but would be phenomenal for someone with no previous force knowledge.

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:33 pm 
Offline
Commence Primary Ignition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:59 am
Posts: 15603
Location: Combat Information Center
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Diamondeye wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
Because 50's car culture was totally safe, y'all, and not at all the domain of reckless hooligans and invincible teenagers.


Yes, clearly when people saw space fighters maneuvering in close quarters and shooting laser cannons at each other in the fashion of WWII fighter planes , they were supposed to think 1950s car culture, not WWII air combat. I can definitely tell you which of tjose has more broad cultural awarenes - and which was the real model for starfighter combat - and it didn't involve cars.

If you look at the trench run it resembles a WWII torpedo bomber attack, like at Midway or that sank Prince of Wales and Repulse. Needle, ball, and airspeed.

But please, tell us more about how Rey is totally a Mary Sue and Luke isnt because 1950s car racing.

Look, DE. I never said that the Battle of Yavin wasn't clearly a dogfight that involved deadly weaponry, yadda yadda.

I said that the notion that Luke had an old buddy vouching for his piloting experience based on his years of hotrodding back home is meant to echo tropes that you see in stories about car culture, which Lucas was very much a fan of. Reference American Graffiti, the movie that got Lucas noticed and a seat at the table to make Star Wars in the first place. You can see more modern examples of it in The Fast and the Furious movies.

So, to repeat two points: that the Battle of Yavin is a clear translation of WWII air combat is not mutually exclusive to suggesting that Luke's recruitment can be taken as an homage to car culture tropes, and I honestly don't care if I convince you because I'm not super invested in this argument the way you seem to be.


This is literally the first SW discussion ever where I have seen the ANH attack on the death star compared to anything BUT WWII air combat, and its only in response to the suggestion that Luke's feats are not much different from Rey's yet somehow she's excessively flawless.

As for how invested anyone is, you've done your share of posting in this thread so perhaps you can direvt me to whatever standard you're consulting to determine who is more invested in an internet discussion.

_________________
"Kind-hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat an enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of war. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed" - On War


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:22 pm
Posts: 5714
Talya wrote:
There's absolutely nothing Mary-Sue-ish about Rey if you simply accept the obvious conclusion that she's already been at least partly trained, or has some other reason for her rapid aptitude in the force.


It hasn't been explained. If it does, ok, no Mary Sue. For now, though....


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:19 pm 
Offline
Oberon's Playground
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:11 am
Posts: 9441
Location: Your Dreams
Arathain Kelvar wrote:
It hasn't been explained. If it does, ok, no Mary Sue. For now, though....


True. But her background has been left intentionally mysterious, and she had that odd reaction to touching Anakin's lightsaber. So they're hinting at it strongly...

_________________
Well Ali Baba had them forty thieves, Scheherezade had a thousand tales
But master you in luck 'cause up your sleeves you got a brand of magic never fails...
...Mister Aladdin, sir, What will your pleasure be?
Let me take your order, Jot it down -You ain't never had a friend like me

█ ♣ █


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 4922
Talya wrote:
There's absolutely nothing Mary-Sue-ish about Rey if you simply accept the obvious conclusion that she's already been at least partly trained, or has some other reason for her rapid aptitude in the force.


If she was already trained, then why does she collect scrap metal for a living? Presumably she'd be trained in other things too that could lead to better jobs, right?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:14 am 
Offline
Solo Hero
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:32 pm
Posts: 3852
Location: Clarkston, Mi
IF I had to guess. She started training as a small child and was sent into hiding when things fell apart.

_________________
Raell Kromwell


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 10:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 4922
Raell wrote:
IF I had to guess. She started training as a small child and was sent into hiding when things fell apart.


Why not go into hiding somewhere nicer, like Coruscant? The desert planet she's on seems pretty dangerous.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:09 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:40 am
Posts: 4281
It's almost as if they send people into hiding on barren sand planets as habit in the Star Wars universe or something. :)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:03 am
Posts: 4922
edit: Naboo would be a much better planet. It's relatively obscure and almost seems like a huge resort. Also it seems to be technologically developed. They even have an underwater city.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 114 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group