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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 10:56 pm 
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I know what's going on, cause I learned from Honor Harrington books.

So this is like the time that Baron High Ridge had to form a government with Countess New Kiev and Elaine Delacroix's "Liberals" eh?

:p

I never really understood why/how killing Pavel Young was a "beaching" offense. There should have been enough evidence, and whatnot to make the "duel" an OK thing.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:22 am 
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I'm currently reading/listening to War of Honor on audiobook, so...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:07 am 
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Interestingly enough, I am also on that book on my current reread.

Also, High Ridge is a **** tool. They got played by Saint-Just.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:59 pm 
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Saint-Just plays everyone he comes across. Just as his model from the French Revolution did.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Never got that far... I tried reading it in 2012 or 2013 and got to "Honor Among Enemies" before deciding that the series was not getting any better, book-by-book; Weber was a hack and you could replace the name "Mary Sue" with "Honor Harrington" without needing to redefine anything.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:10 pm 
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^^ what she said

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:32 pm 
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Eh, Mary-Sue would apply if she never lost, and won handily every time.

That's not really the case. She loses throughout the series. Her "skills" are generally backed up for the most part.

She's no Bella Swan or Anastasia Steele ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:14 pm 
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A lot of her Mary-Sue comes from the fact that Manticore is the technologically superior entity and the almost absurd level of professionalism in the Manticoran Navy.

She's actually tore up pretty bad by the midpoint of the series and she'd be retired or dead if not for Manticoran medicine.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
A lot of her Mary-Sue comes from the fact that Manticore is the technologically superior entity and the almost absurd level of professionalism in the Manticoran Navy.

She's actually tore up pretty bad by the midpoint of the series and she'd be retired or dead if not for Manticoran medicine.


Yeah. I agree here. The "Mary Sue" has more "informed" abilities for no reason. By "War of Honor" she's a decorated Full Admiral with *decades* of combat experience. Of course she's gonna be a badass.

The *only* thing I quibble on is her swordfighting ability in "Flag in Exile". I get that she's a "black belt" in the Coup, but that doesn't necessarily translate to kendo style swordfighting. Burdette was a master, but she took him like he wasn't even there.

Sues don't generally suffer at all, and they usually win pretty easily. She saved the Protector at dinner, because of Nimitz, and her unarmed ability... and STILL got shot in the face, losing her eye.

Escaping from the Peeps, she lost that eye again, and an arm. Spent all of "In Enemy Hands" without it. She has lost friends, family, colleagues, mentors, etc.

I have a hard time thinking of her a sa Sue.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:48 pm 
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Müs wrote:
The *only* thing I quibble on is her swordfighting ability in "Flag in Exile". I get that she's a "black belt" in the Coup, but that doesn't necessarily translate to kendo style swordfighting. Burdette was a master, but she took him like he wasn't even there.


IIRC the cybernetic eye had something to do with that as well, and that dual she won in the book before it. It was kind of weak, but it at least was a reason.

I didn't really like either of those books all that much though. They felt like a long lead-in to "Honor Among Enemies", as if he really wanted to write about q-ships and needed 2 books to justify putting Honor in charge of the squadron.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:41 am 
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The duel with Summervale made a bit more sense, she shot his *** from the hip.

I still am unclear on why killing Young "ended her career" though.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:32 am 
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Müs wrote:
The duel with Summervale made a bit more sense, she shot his *** from the hip.


She definitely didn't shoot his ***. ;)

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I still am unclear on why killing Young "ended her career" though.


Something to do with the sensibilities of shooting other members of the House of Lords that was poorly explained; it's like everyone forgot what a shitlord Pavel Young was as soon as he died. Mostly, author fiat so Weber could write a story focusing on Grayson.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:48 am 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Müs wrote:
The duel with Summervale made a bit more sense, she shot his *** from the hip.


She definitely didn't shoot his ***. ;)

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I still am unclear on why killing Young "ended her career" though.


Something to do with the sensibilities of shooting other members of the House of Lords that was poorly explained; it's like everyone forgot what a shitlord Pavel Young was as soon as he died. Mostly, author fiat so Weber could write a story focusing on Grayson.


That is true fo sho. She killed him pretty good.

And the opposition's "She shot an unarmed man!" "No dude. He was only unarmed because he just emptied his clip into Honor."

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:47 pm 
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One of the least believable aspects of Weber's writing is that the political opposition makes such egregariously idiotic arguments but the Manticoran public never seems to notice.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:24 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
One of the least believable aspects of Weber's writing is that the political opposition makes such egregariously idiotic arguments but the Manticoran public never seems to notice.


From what I understand they *do* notice, but since so much is run by the Lords and not the Commons that the public really don't matter.

Until later after HR and his cronies **** it all up royally. And Montaigne wrests the party away from New Kiev.

And Lynx.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:01 am 
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If that's the case, it's still rather strange that they have all the scenes where they're fussing over what the "man or woman in the street" will think, although it's true he doesn't really ever discuss Commons much at all.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:41 pm 
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I'd bet its because they have to at least pay lip service to their ideals so they don't lose everything in the commons. Which is why the "war" persisted for so long. They knew they didn't have the votes in the commons to reauthorize the taxes and the only way they could not call an election was to drag out the "war" for so long. HR and cronies were using the RMIA as their own personal slush fund with Makris behind the backs of Kare and Reynaud, and they couldn't do that once Theisman made his Bolthole pronouncement. All those sweet, sweet military dollars actually needed to go to the military at that point.

I was a little shocked at how insular the structure was. Janacek was the guy in On Basilisk, he was terribly incompetent, and HR puts him back in charge after he takes the Premiership? Same with Jurgensen et al.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Not specifically at that point in the story. There's points throughout the series where characters other than High Ridge's government members also worry about it, and later in the series when they start bringing in additional star systems they're worried about letting new citizens just start voting right away and overwhelming the original Manticorans before they're fully integrated with how Manticoran politics actually work.

Obviously Commons is important in the process, but Weber never quite gets around to explaining exactly what that might be.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:45 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Not specifically at that point in the story. There's points throughout the series where characters other than High Ridge's government members also worry about it, and later in the series when they start bringing in additional star systems they're worried about letting new citizens just start voting right away and overwhelming the original Manticorans before they're fully integrated with how Manticoran politics actually work.

Obviously Commons is important in the process, but Weber never quite gets around to explaining exactly what that might be.


That's actually right about that point in the book. San Martin wanted to be part of the "empire" and they didn't want to seat the peers. Oh, and commons creates the peerages too. That's another thing they do. :) But only 10% of the Lords can be seated at once or something.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Müs wrote:
That's actually right about that point in the book. San Martin wanted to be part of the "empire" and they didn't want to seat the peers. Oh, and commons creates the peerages too. That's another thing they do. :) But only 10% of the Lords can be seated at once or something.


The Empire came later on, once the new wormhole was more fully explored. It was a backdrop for the transition from the renewed war with Have to "let's be friends and beat the **** out of the Solarians together."

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:58 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
Müs wrote:
That's actually right about that point in the book. San Martin wanted to be part of the "empire" and they didn't want to seat the peers. Oh, and commons creates the peerages too. That's another thing they do. :) But only 10% of the Lords can be seated at once or something.


The Empire came later on, once the new wormhole was more fully explored. It was a backdrop for the transition from the renewed war with Have to "let's be friends and beat the **** out of the Solarians together."


Exactly. **** those Solarian ****. And their Mesa Paymasters too.

The "mind control nano" is a little stupid. ;)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:54 am 
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I'm not really a fan of that stuff; it seems like its a "bad guy win button until it isn't" thing.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:21 pm 
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Diamondeye wrote:
I'm not really a fan of that stuff; it seems like its a "bad guy win button until it isn't" thing.


Yeah, its a little too neat and tidy. Until Pulserfinger wipes out her Flag Lt. Oh, hey! They're using some sort of mind control!

I will be interested in the next book though. I want to see where the war with the sollies and eventually what Mike's doing to Mesa.

As a side note, did you read the Zahn "prequels"? They're quite good.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:44 pm 
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I was wondering last night.

Invictus class SD(P) or ISD? Who do you think would win?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:56 pm 
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Müs wrote:
I was wondering last night.

Invictus class SD(P) or ISD? Who do you think would win?


The ISD would win easily. Honorverse missiles have warheads in the 15-to-100-or-so-megaton range; energy weapons might be 10x that. ISD turbolasers are in the gigaton range, minimum, and their shields can withstand fire in that range for hours. The Invictus would run out of amnmunition trying to penetrate ISD shields. However, it might escape destruction surprisingly easily if it doesn't close to energy range. TIE fighter weapons are much less powerful than capital ship weapons, so if it keeps its wedge interposed the ISD might not be able to effectively attack it. Wedges are invulnerable in the context of the HH universe, not necessarily immune to weapons orders of magnitude more powerful, but even if not perfectly immune to ISD weapons, they're still an incredibly strong defense, so strong that no one in HH even bothers trying to devise a way to penetrate them. Even the "grave lance", which can defeat sidewalls, isn't really contemplated to have a serious chance of penetrating a wedge.

HH weapons might seem to have much longer ranges, but in reality the extreme power of electronic warfare in SW is probably what limits ranges. (witness the jamming in ROTJ; Ozzel "coming out of lightspeed too close to the system"; Vader obviously expected him to bombard the base from outside the system).

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