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What do you believe is the most accurate version the development of human kind?
4000-10,000 years;Young-Earth; Literal interpretation of the Bible 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Allegorical or liberal interpretation of creation 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
'creative' interpretation of the Bible and/or Intelligent Design 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Big Bang->Evolutionary theory alone 62%  62%  [ 13 ]
Other 19%  19%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 21
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:50 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
I should also point out that next year the Gaia satellite will begin being able to directly measure the distance to stars by the method of trigonometric parallax to tens of thousands of light years, giving the first direct confirmation of distance by geometric means of distance in excess of the age of world as given by Genesis. (current limit of trigonometric parallax using the Hipparcos satellite is ~1600 light years)


You're assuming a constant speed of light, and ignoring VSL theory (Moffat, Webb, Albrecht, Magueijo).

But yes, there's lots of evidence that the universe is quite old. But it's also very easy to sidestep, as pointed out, assuming an omnipotent creator.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:50 pm 
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While the idea that God could have created a six thousand year-old universe to appear as though it were fourteen billion years old, that would require extra effort on the part of the creator, and would inhibit created life's ability to learn from their surroundings. This would make the creator a god of ignorance, and hostile to created life on a very basic and fundamental level.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:54 pm 
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I also wanted to add, slightly off topic, that I dislike the idea of including scientific theories under "belief".

You don't "believe" or "disbelieve" scientific theories. You use them as workable assumptions that give you a starting place from which to build at which point you happily scrap the old one, and start using the new one.

Belief should indicate some deeper commitment to something, in my mind.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Corolinth wrote:
While the idea that God could have created a six thousand year-old universe to appear as though it were fourteen billion years old, that would require extra effort on the part of the creator, and would inhibit created life's ability to learn from their surroundings. This would make the creator a god of ignorance, and hostile to created life on a very basic and fundamental level.


Or, as indicated previously in the thread, a God who wants to test people. And assuming the world still works the same way, all you throw out is various continuity theorems- everything else we understand about the universe still works. But other than that, I don't disagree.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:59 pm 
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I couldn't bring myself to worship a God that would create a universe designed to fool us as to its nature.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:06 pm 
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TheRiov wrote:
I couldn't bring myself to worship a God that would create a universe designed to fool us as to its nature.


But there are lots of others who don't have any problem with it.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:54 pm 
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If God did decide to do that, we wouldn't know it.

Essentially it would be akin to starting a movie on scene 15 rather than at the beginning. If you walk into the room 2 seconds after the movie starts, it is indistinguishable from a movie started at the beginning.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:40 pm 
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NephyrS wrote:
Corolinth wrote:
While the idea that God could have created a six thousand year-old universe to appear as though it were fourteen billion years old, that would require extra effort on the part of the creator, and would inhibit created life's ability to learn from their surroundings. This would make the creator a god of ignorance, and hostile to created life on a very basic and fundamental level.


Or, as indicated previously in the thread, a God who wants to test people. And assuming the world still works the same way, all you throw out is various continuity theorems- everything else we understand about the universe still works. But other than that, I don't disagree.


But that doesn't make any sense. If you're an omnipotent being, and you know everything is going to happen... why test anyone if you already know the result?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Müs wrote:
But that doesn't make any sense. If you're an omnipotent being, and you know everything is going to happen... why test anyone if you already know the result?


Why an omnipotent being would do anything is really beyond our ability to discern. We simply cannot imagine what it would be like to be God. When people, for example, wonder why God would want worship or pretend that it's laughable that He would, they are arrogantly presuming to be able to understand the perspective of an omniscient, omnipotent being for whom time has no meaning, or equally arrogantly, assuming that our perspectives apply to Him. This is as if a mosquito were to scoff at the idea that a human being would notice such a small and insignificant bite.

That said, I feel the question is moot anyhow, since I do not see that the origins of existence as a test of faith fit into Christian ideas about faith, grace, salvation, and redemption.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:41 pm 
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Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

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Müs wrote:
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.


Amusingly, we don't apply this standard to anything else. In fact, people often decry attempts to prevent evil for their interference.

Again, we cannot know what things look like from God's perspective. That quote is just an arrogant attempt to place human limitations on God.

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Diamondeye wrote:
Müs wrote:
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.


Amusingly, we don't apply this standard to anything else. In fact, people often decry attempts to prevent evil for their interference.

Again, we cannot know what things look like from God's perspective. That quote is just an arrogant attempt to place human limitations on God.


We have ascribed to God the definition of Evil (in his own words sorta. I'm fuzzy on the whole Jesus thing) and yet, He still allows it to happen.

He either doesn't give a ****, or he's malevolent. If He cared, he'd stop bad things happening to good people. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:02 pm 
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None of that is necessarily true.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:04 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:16 pm 
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Müs wrote:
If He cared, he'd stop bad things happening to good people. ;)


So he tests us, but then removes any bad consequences of said test if we happen to fail?

I don't see how that makes any sense at all.

If it's a test, and we have free will to do as we choose, he can't remove bad consequences and bad choices. That would remove our ability to choose, making it less of a test and more of a puppet show.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:23 am 
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But bad consequences don't necessarily flow from bad decisions.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:19 am 
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I think a better way to put it would be that God wants us to live our own lives. If God were to remove all evil, Good would be largely irrelevant. We would not love God of our own accord, but because no other possibility existed.

The problem with Arfys's quote is that it is written by someone who does not believe in God in the first place, and therefore contains a hidden assumption that because God doesn't remove all evil in this world, He is unwilling to do so at all. The complete removal of evil comes with eternal life in Heaven. God is, in fact, willing and able to remove evil, but the manner in which He does so is not to simply quash it in this world, but rather to offer us eternal life in a perfect place.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:33 am 
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Jocificus wrote:
Müs wrote:
If He cared, he'd stop bad things happening to good people. ;)


So he tests us, but then removes any bad consequences of said test if we happen to fail?

I don't see how that makes any sense at all.

If it's a test, and we have free will to do as we choose, he can't remove bad consequences and bad choices. That would remove our ability to choose, making it less of a test and more of a puppet show.


No, He tests us but knows the outcome of the test before He does it.

SO its less "I wonder what kind of a person this is" and more "Hah! I'm gonna tempt this dude and hes totally gonna go to hell."

The Christian god is a dick. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Müs wrote:
No, He tests us but knows the outcome of the test before He does it.

SO its less "I wonder what kind of a person this is" and more "Hah! I'm gonna tempt this dude and hes totally gonna go to hell."

The Christian god is a dick. ;)


God does not tempt people.

If you want to not believe, just don't believe. You don't need to justify it. We don't need to justify our belief to you either.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:04 am 
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Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I consider it perfectly reasonable to interpret the conflict between scientific dating and a literal read of Genesis as a test of faith. If you already believe that God *could* create the world from scratch in six days, it's not a leap at all to suggest he could create isotopes in varying partial states of decay that would look, to our dating methods, like they'd been around longer than they have. Why God would set such a thing up, I can't fathom, but I can say that about a lot of things relating to God... it's approaching tautological to point that out.


One cannot categoricly prove the bible account is innaccurate when assuming an omnipotent deity is in play. I have been saying for well over a decade, that either the universe is nearly 14 billion years old, or an all-powerful deity decided to make it look like the universe is nearly 14 billion years old as some kind of practical joke. The choices are, therefore, (1) that the universe is nearly 14 billion years old, the earth over 4 billion, and we evolved or (2) God is an *******.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:11 am 
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Talya wrote:
Kaffis Mark V wrote:
I consider it perfectly reasonable to interpret the conflict between scientific dating and a literal read of Genesis as a test of faith. If you already believe that God *could* create the world from scratch in six days, it's not a leap at all to suggest he could create isotopes in varying partial states of decay that would look, to our dating methods, like they'd been around longer than they have. Why God would set such a thing up, I can't fathom, but I can say that about a lot of things relating to God... it's approaching tautological to point that out.


One cannot categoricly prove the bible account is innaccurate when assuming an omnipotent deity is in play. I have been saying for well over a decade, that either the universe is nearly 14 billion years old, or an all-powerful deity decided to make it look like the universe is nearly 14 billion years old as some kind of practical joke. The choices are, therefore, (1) that the universe is nearly 14 billion years old, the earth over 4 billion, and we evolved or (2) God is an *******.

And now that Taly has chimed in we can conclusively declare this thread dead :)

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Lies from the pit of hell!


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:22 pm 
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I will agree that Big Bang Theory is from the pits of Hell.

God that show's awful.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Müs wrote:
I will agree that Big Bang Theory is from the pits of Hell.

God that show's awful.

+1. Million.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:30 pm 
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One of my all time favorite shows, thank you very much.

I interact with at least one person on almost a daily basis who falls into each of the scientist stereotypes.

It's one of the few shows my wife and I will watch over and over.

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