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 Post subject: Romans 13:1-7
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:05 am 
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Huh.

I thought this was interesting. What do you think? (emphasis mine)

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.
6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing.
7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:41 am 
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(my 2cp, I'm just a layman. YMMV)

Yep Good stuff, especially for today. It is definite applicable and the cornerstone of the idea that Christians should be law abiding. We're not perfect yet; we fail, but we should certainly strive to be so for God is watching.

Does this mean Christians shouldn't question the government? I'm going to say no. Here's why. In America though there is an interesting dichotomy. The government, or at least the individual members are supposed to be servants of the electorate, and also fall under those appropriate scripture passages. Also we the people have government power with our vote and we need to wield that power in a God honoring way.

Personally I believe American Christians should submit to the process and to the rule of law (see exception below) rather than blindly follow any one transient person. If you have a problem with that person in power you need to pray for him/her (see 1 Tim 2), and deal with him/her through "the system" ( booting them out of office). For those who don't look it up, I'd like to point out that Paul says we should pray they leave us alone and they get right with God, not that ill should befall them.

Additionally the Apostles showed by example in Acts that they weren't going to submit to the higher powers when the higher powers would not allow them to preach the Gospel. The old testiment has many examples of men choosing to honor God over obeying government, especially during the times of Israel's captivity.

God used the kings of Medes and Persians to bring judgement/chastisement to an unrepentant Israel. While I don't believe America is special in the same way that Israel is, the principal may often be the same.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:58 am 
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Paul's words weren't the words of Christ so I don't put any stock in someone who used to oppress people in the name of authority. Seems hes tying his religious beliefs now to his actions then to ease his conscience - nothing more.

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 Post subject: Re: Romans 13:1-7
PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:57 am 
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Assuming of course that Paul wrote his own words, as opposed to spake (put out words) as the Holy Spirt moved him, or in his own words given as inspiration of God.

I always thought that the passage in question as an elaboration of Christ's render unto Caesar doctrine, if you want to deal solely in red letters. However I believe that the whole bible was given as nspiration of God.

Of course that's a whole different can of worms.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Thanks Ror, I like your explanations.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:16 pm 
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I would like to point out, although no one ever agrees...

Christ was supposed to be the culmination and closure of the old testament. The beginning to a new set of laws and rules.

Hence why we do not stone people anymore, why we do not shun black people and enslave black people, why we do not cast out people who cut their hair and beards.

And... for the NT...

I feel that Jesus said one thing that trumps anything Paul or any other ******* who followed said:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."
Jesus the Way to the Father

5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
"Come now; let us leave.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:47 am 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Paul's words weren't the words of Christ so I don't put any stock in someone who used to oppress people in the name of authority. Seems hes tying his religious beliefs now to his actions then to ease his conscience - nothing more.

Matthew 22:15-22: Paying Taxes
Jesus Christ wrote:
15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"

21 "Caesar's," they replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Which isn't at all the section that is being discussed but thanks Hopwin.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Rori mentioned it earlier and it is related in subject matter. Paul's words can be viewed as an elaboration of the render unto Caesar speech.

That is one of the problems with electronic money. No one's name or picture is upon it, it's just a digital transfer of a concept.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:14 pm 
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Elmarnieh wrote:
Which isn't at all the section that is being discussed but thanks Hopwin.

It seemed relevant to me. *shrug*

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:16 pm 
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Micheal wrote:
Rori mentioned it earlier and it is related in subject matter. Paul's words can be viewed as an elaboration of the render unto Caesar speech.

That is one of the problems with electronic money. No one's name or picture is upon it, it's just a digital transfer of a concept.

Give to the internet what is the internet's?

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:59 am 
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Hopwin wrote:
Elmarnieh wrote:
Which isn't at all the section that is being discussed but thanks Hopwin.

It seemed relevant to me. *shrug*


It is indeed relevant. We call it "context".

Of course, that's for those of us who aren't trying to fit our religious beliefs to our political ideas.

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 Post subject: Re: Romans 13:1-7
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 12:46 pm 
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No. He isn't taking anything out of context.

Your expressed viewpoint gives all forms of despotism, past or present, the Grace of God.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Seems pretty clear to that the OP quoted section states that no governmental authority exists without the consent of God.

There are issues I have with that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:12 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
There are issues I have with that.


And that's why you're going to hell. :P

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:09 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Seems pretty clear to that the OP quoted section states that no governmental authority exists without the consent of God.

There are issues I have with that.


You deny the Obamessiah!?!? Heretic! Burn him!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:39 pm 
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Religion is funny. Also there is something sexual about telling people to submit themselves.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Ladas wrote:
Seems pretty clear to that the OP quoted section states that no governmental authority exists without the consent of God.

There are issues I have with that.


There are several wicked rulers that are mentioned in the bible that God uses for certain purposes then brings down when he's done with them. Some would apply the same idea to present and more recent past wicked rulers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:53 pm 
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Yeah, all of which is contained in my problem with the concept.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:42 pm 
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I have heard it put this way. God made the world he gets to call the shots. If you don't like go out some place where God has never been and make your own air earth and water.

I don't say that to put you down, but it's the simple truth of the situation. God isn't a tyrant He really wants what's best for each and every one of us, but to make that happen there has to be some order. We get to choose but choices have consquenses.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:08 am 
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Your statements aren't compatible Rointhas.... either God gets to dictate all the terms, or he isn't a tyrant.... either God dictates all the terms, or we have choices.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:11 am 
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In God We Trust, *****.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:43 pm 
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To Lolinthas' first post, I'll just also add that when Judah went into captivity, they were commanded to pray for the peace of their captors and live peaceably with them.

The passage in the original post has made me question whether or not Christians had any right before God to take part in the American revolution. I'm not 100% convinced either way yet, but mostly because I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it and ultimately it doesn't matter anyway.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:54 pm 
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I am sorry I don't always write well and it's not something I can always explain. Yes we have free will and Yes God is in control. God is a lot bigger than we are and can move the decisions that we make into his plans for the good of those who follow him.

Scree. I wonder about the Revolution and God's will as well. He allowed it to happen and allowed it to succeed. Resultantly a nation was created that's done more than any other in the last 230ish years to spread the Gospel worldwide. Perhaps He would have liked to see it happen a different way, but He certainly used their choice for His glory.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:32 am 
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on a side note... because I am a prick and there are some on my facebook page who claim to be incredibly righteous; but constantly ***** about the government and how it needs to be removed...

I posted a link to this passage from bible gateway; I want to see how many people "get it"

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